Engagement with Gandhi

Prologue: A sizeable number of intellectuals and social activists participated in the workshop, Engagement with Gandhi. Organised by CSDS/Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam, the workshop was presided over by Rajendra Dhasmana, Chairman, Uttarakhand-PUCL and former Chief Editor of the Indian government sponsored Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi (CWMG). Suresh Nautiyal of the Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam/CSDS moderated the dialogue. It focussed on the relevance of philosophy of Gandhi in the modern turbulent times.

Participation

Besides individuals, representatives of the following organisations also took part in the workshop:

1. The Himalaya Trust, Garur, Bageshwar, UA

2. Friends of the Earth-Finland

3. Uttarakhand-PUCL, Dehradun, UA

4. Uttarakhand Chaupal, Delhi

5. Himachal Gyan Vigyan Samiti, Shimla, HP

6. Las Americas Refugee Asylum Project, US

7. Samskriti, Kannur, Kerala

8. SIDH (Society for Integrated Development of Himalayas), Mussoorie, UA

9. VB Singh, CSDS, Delhi, India, and several individuals

Suresh Nautiyal: Initiating the dialogue, Suresh Nautiyal of the Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam/CSDS said that Gandhiji’s simple and austere lifestyle was more relevant at a time when the powerful economies were dumping their products in the economically weak countries and thereby forcing them to be a part of their globalisation campaign. Therefore, he said, that it was important to explore the path of austerity and non-violence shown by Gandhiji at a time when terrorism was being promoted as an ideology by fundamentalist outfits. He requested Dr Himanshu Bourai of the HNB Garhwal University, Srinagar, UA, who teaches political science there, to talk about the relevance of Gandhiji.

Dr Himanshu Bourai: Describing Gandhiji still very relevant, Dr Himanshu Bourai, who is also general secretary of the Uttarakhand PUCL, Dehradun, UA and who also did her work on Gandhian and Indian liberal thoughts, pointed out that Gandhi was a valuable legacy for the whole world. Gandhi was not in contradiction with the liberals but ahead of them. “He went one step ahead of the liberals. It is very clear that Gandhi tried his best to sanctify everything in an ideological manner, in a theoretical manner and in a philosophical manner. So, to me, Gandhi was a very traditional kind of man. He was a revolutionary type of a man. When he talked about truth, when he talked about non-violence or Satyagraha, he actually talked in terms of human values in particular and I think, the crisis of human values is the biggest challenge that we are still faced with,” observed Dr Bourai. She also pointed out that such values were not like a constitution that could be amended time and again. “But such values need to be nurtured for the overall development of human beings,” she added.

Dr. Bourai said it was important to understand what globalisation was all about and how it came into existence. “I believe, globalisation is not existing in the sky. It exists in this very world. Its sources are also our villages – I mean the basic units … And suppose, if the villagers understand that the globalisation stood on their resources of water, land, and forest; will they allow it to happen? My point is that the resources belong to the local people. And, the right over them should go to the common people through the institution of real panchayati raj. And this is all about decentralisation or empowerment of people at the grassroots level,” she elaborated.

She said the fight for these rights was still going on. “The point is that we should not think that globalisation has its roots deep inside the economies of several countries, so we cannot do anything about it. On the contrary, we can do everything, as basic things like land, forests and water are with we people. These resources belong to us, to our villages. I am not talking about those living in the cities, but our villages have all these resources and means like the panchayati raj institution. So, we should try and strengthen them more and more,” she pointed out.

Dr EJ Thomas: Father EJ Thomas, a Jesuit priest working in North Kerala, told the workshop that his organisation, Samskriti, Kannur (Kerala) dedicated to the cause of the Dalits, was trying to translate Gandhiji's ideas into scientific research and action programmes like helping the Dalit women to develop gardens at the very local level so that the ancient Indian form of medicines, ayurveda, was made an alternative to western allopathic way of treatment. Dr Thomas said such an effort was not only a part of the great Indian tradition but essentially Gandhian in nature. He informed that the organisation was also engaged in the research work on natural/organic diets using the various kinds of leaves, flowers, etc. He said the organic colours are eco-friendly and could be used in toy making. These colours were also used to dye clothes naturally.

“The point is that the Gandhian idea should not remain an idea only. It should be translated into action programmes for the ordinary people to accept it in Indian culture; but unfortunately this is where we have failed. We just kept it as an idea. We need to propagate it and make it an alternative to the western technology. My plea is that the research has to be in an Indian style so that it is made much more acceptable. Our culture, our own tradition are essentially Gandhian. This way, we are going back to that original kind of thing. For example, the Dalits make herbal things and sell it among local people and earn money without causing any harm to nature,” he observed.

Dr. Thomas said that a process of people's movement was going on in his state, Kerala, and that there was a people's own planning programme that was not imposed from the top. People themselves made some of the Gandhian ideas.

He also talked about the western and eastern (Indian) streams of logic and argued that while the western logic was mainly working with the head, the eastern one also took care of humane and emotional aspects. Also, he said, if people really wanted the Gandhian philosophy to be put into practice, education – formal or informal must reach everybody. “Only then we can translate that amendment for the panchayat raj in an active way,” he added saying that it has become possible in Kerala because both men and women there were educated and they knew about their rights.

Dr Thomas stressed on the need for research in the traditional knowledge system so that the system was put in the right perspective and propaganda against it was countered effectively.

Kasturi DasGupta: Ms Kasturi DasGupta, who teaches sociology at Georgian Court College, Lakewood New Jersey in US, said she along with her colleague Sister Marlene Perotte was visiting all over India and was very impressed by the Gandhian thought as the Gandhian philosophy was a defence against globalisation. She argued that it was difficult to stop industrialisation as it was spontaneous and as it had no character of it's own. It depended who put it to use. She added that the capitalist globalisation in the form of MNCs, TNCs, and the countries like US, UK who have monopolised the whole process of economic development, were putting it to use. So, the problem was who was monopolising it.

“But, we don't see in the near future any process which will democratise that technology. We don't see that. So, in that transitional period, we need the Gandhian way of thinking because that is what our people have,” she added.

She agreed that the natural resources have sustained the people for generations. “It is something that is indigenous, it is something which is of the land, it is something which they know about and something which will protect them until that wonderful day when commission or socialism happens, because this is where we see the fusion of Gandhism and Marxism. That is where we want to be,” DasGupta maintained.

She asserted that socialism was the future but how were we going to get there? “We are not going to hold our breath until then. Who is going to take care of the people between now and then? The people have to take care of themselves. Self-sufficiency – that is where the Gandhian ideas come into. That is what we saw in Sevagram hermitage – How people, villages and communities have to take care of themselves. That is where Gandhiji comes in,” she elaborated.

She said when people visited the ASF kind of forums, it was a celebration of people's energy and power and resourcefulness but what power was there to stop the juggernaut of the US power of globalisation?

She regretted that the globalisation has affected all humans and it was necessary to think about solving the problem. “How the values of our children are changing because of globalisation and the same thing is happening in India. It's such a huge problem so anything, that anybody does, is important because we can't change the whole thing, we can't change the whole system. That is what we want to do but we can't do it. So, anything that anybody can do is good, be it panchayat raj etc.,” DasGupta suggested.

Anastasia Laitila: Ms Anastasia Laitila, former Chairperson of Friends of the Earth-Finland, said that the system would not change unless something else was not initiated first. “There has to be a parallel initiative and actions before the system can change. So, that is the dilemma we are facing now. We have to start somewhere and head somewhere and you have to take different kinds of steps at the same time. I will add something on science. There was a mention about the western model of science, which has essentially become a very profit related science. This meant the results depended upon who was funding the research. The basic debate that we have, at least in Europe, is that values and science are definitely not together. They are totally different. Either you speak up in a scientific manner or you speak of the values in a kind of a sentimental way. You can't challenge science with unscientific things and the unscientific things are the values,” she articulated.

Arun Kumar Panibaba: Arun Kumar Panibaba, a journalist turned ecological activist, regretted that Gandhi was forgotten by the people. “A man of his calibre, who ruled people’s hearts suddenly found his place in the bin of history. And, this happened after India got Independence from the British rule,” he regretted. He added that those understood Gandhi should try to dig out why he has become a thing of the past.

Throwing light on several aspects of Gandhi, he said he was the man who made the Indians fearless, fearless of the British. “Earlier, they were afraid of the British people. This was not an ordinary achievement,” he pointed out.

“To understand Gandhi in a better way it is important to see him as a strategist as well merely not as an idealist. It was his strategy that brought the common people on the streets to oppose the British, who were actually feared. It was Gandhi who made people think that the British rulers were not super humans. It was also important to make the people consider themselves as free humans,” Panibaba maintained, while adding that Gandhi knew it perfectly well that if people resorted to violence the repression would be very intense.

Describing science as a very value based concept, he added that values and science were not separate and faith in science was not ordinary for the ordinary man. For a learned man, science may be value free but for the common man it is not. “Science is not neutral and is a very value based concept. It is an artificial situation to think that science is neutral. Also, the faith in science is not ordinary for the ordinary man. For a learned person science may be value free but not for the common man. The common man's belief is that science could deliver water,” he argued underlying the importance of Gandhian values in life.

Sister Marlene Perrotte: Sister Marlene Perrotte of the Las Americas Refugee Asylum Project, US, who assisted in voluntary works for more than eight years, said that unless there was a change of value, we would continue to emulate that value. “Even though we can analyse it, criticise it, psychologically, that collective value, somehow, is embedded and I guess I would just say, I think I would only look at truth force that Gandhi had always said. I think that is really something that we must keep alive that the truth is spoken and searched for and that is not carried in the media and, therefore, the media carries a responsibility for forming and promulgating those values. How we begin to educate – in a formal or informal way – in a different value system that is not coded. I do believe in that monkey and the monkey has always given me hope amidst all those terrible globalisation that there is a possibility of a critical mass consciousness.

“Therefore, each thing that is done, each grouping that holds back that horrible oppression that maybe we might have enough time to have that critical mass consciousness, to change the species’ consciousness, that collective consciousness but I don't know if we have time. However, we just have to keep hope that we might have the time for that critical mass consciousness.

“I think that the truth is spoken and searched for. How can we begin to educate – in a formal or informal way – in a different value system that is not coded. I do believe that there is a possibility of a critical mass consciousness. Therefore, each thing that is done, each grouping that holds back that horrible oppression that maybe we might have enough time to have that critical mass consciousness, to change the species consciousness and that collective consciousness. But I don't know if we have time. I carry the grief of my people, our government and what my people are doing as a dominant aggressive force, and those who march the streets and write letters cannot stop this. Maybe, the Europeans will boycott it. Maybe, they will help us. It is globalisation at that oppressive point where, like so many times, we are seemingly helpless. I think, we just have to keep hope that we might have the time for that critical mass consciousness,” she elaborated.

VB Singh: VB Singh, former director of the CSDS, Delhi, said he found that thinking Gandhi was much easier than doing Gandhi. “We all say that Gandhi did this and he did that, and that Gandhi had an answer for this problem, but to implement that in today's contexts is the problem we are facing. It was much easier to implement Gandhi in the 1950s or the 1960s. Now it has become next to impossible. We are talking about an independent village. How can we have an independent village in this global environment? Here, you can't have anything independent, you neither have independent seeds nor independent fertiliser, nor independent water produced in the village. You have to depend on various external forces. We have demanded so many independent things but we just talk about them. When Gandhi opposed something, he initiated a movement. He even went to the seashore to produce salt. Are we ready to produce alternate seeds here?”

He maintained that until and unless efforts in that direction were made, there could be talk about Gandhi. “We can't implement Gandhi. I thought that people had come here to negotiate Gandhi. When we meet in groups, like today, we go away with more questions than solutions to our queries.”

He, however, said that Gandhi was solution to many a problem. “This is one kind of means to resolve the problem and take Gandhi to the villages i.e. empower the powerless people. The panchayati raj is doing it's best on that, and we have to strengthen that institution in many different ways; different NGOs, different semi-government organisations are trying to inculcate awareness, educate people about the reservation of women and OBCs in the panchayati raj.”

This is one kind of means to resolve the problem and take Gandhi to the villages i.e. empowering the powerless people. On that, the panchayati raj is doing it's best and we have to strengthen that institution and to do that in many different ways; different NGO organisations, different semi-government organisations are trying to inculcate awareness, educate people and out this reservation of women in panchayati raj, reservation of OBCs in panchayati raj. So, power fearing, the politics is the easiest thing to get access to because they are related to the number game.

Bhupen Singh: Disagreeing with most of the speakers, Bhupen Singh of the Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam, Delhi, said that Ghandhi has been eulogised unnecessarily as a super human being, as a god.

“But my point is that he was a human being like any of us no doubt he did play his role in the bst possible way. That’s it. While talking about Gandhi’s role in Independence, we should not forget that the common people also played their role very effectively, however there is no denying about what Gandhi did. Also, I do not believe that Gandhi did great things for the emanicipation of the dalits, though his austere way of life was praiseworthy,” he argued adding that Gandhi was to be seen in a broad-based perspective only.

Rajendra Dhasmana: In his concluding remark, Rajendra Dhasmana, who chaired the workshop, pointed out that it was necessary to put Gandhi’s philosophy in the right perspective as the dialogue has gone beyond his philosophy. He said Dr Himanshu Bourai has talked about taking decentralisation to the villages but unfortunately efforts were made to take India nearer to the western concepts. “The panchayat raj which has been discussed here did not belong to Gandhi. This panchayat raj belongs to the Congress party. The panchayat raj you talk about is different from that of Gandhi. He was for electing representatives at the village level and then sending some of them to the district level bodies and onwards. The approach was bottom up. But this was not followed and contary to the people’s aspirations West Minster model was adopted. I wonder why this is being supported. Similarly, parliamentary system is fine but who said the British model was good for the Indian soil,” Dhasmana asked.

Dhasmana, however, said that there were few good things in the constitution like the 73^rd and 74^th amendments to it. If implemented effectively, they could prove to be the basis for bottom up governance and planning,” he pointed out adding that it was unfortunate that the elected representative were not in favour of the provisions of these amendments. “They believe that if these amendments are implemented, the executive powers will shift to the village bodies and their role will be reduced and then nobody will run after them,” he remarked.

He said even the Madhya Pradesh (Indian state) experiment of village government was not that much successful as has been claimed. “It is because the governance is not bottom up. The planning is done at the top and then transferred downwards and those make the plans at the top do not know the real conditions in the rural areas. As a result, the planning is bound to fail,” he argued.

Conclusion: It was concluded that the relevance of Mahatma Gandhi was very important in today’s world. It also emerged from the workshop that Gandhian values, including austere and simple life style, were some of the best possible ways to fight the monster of globalisation and privatisation which was overtaking everything else in the name of unifying the world economy. The speakers also expressed concern the way the MNCs and the TNCs were making their ways into the weak economies and taking control of their resources. Rajendra Dhasmana, chair of the workshop, appropriately said that there was need for practising the panchayati raj as envisioned by Gandhji and not as was being practised in India.

It was also felt that Gandhi was to be seen not as a god but as a human being and as a great leader. The emphasis was on his philosophy of non-violence in today’s turbulent times and the need for taking the bull of globalisation by the horn. It was also called upon to find ways to take on the capitalist globalisation that has monopolised the whole process of economic development.

(The Report compiled by Suresh Nautiyal, Co-ordinator of the South Asian Dialogues on Ecological Democracy/CSDS with assistance from Chris Mary Kurian. Transcription support: Aziel Karthak, Kundal Singh Chauhan and Kamlesh Mehta.)

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